PBS Discussions

santalone · Moderator Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 50

What did you think about the "Suicide Bombers" television broadcast? What measures should nations take to combat terrorism? Is strict security an effective way to prevent terrorism? Is terrorism against military targets ever justifiable? Is terrorism against civilian targets ever justifiable? What do you think should be done to find a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? We invite you to share your thoughts with us here.

NOTE: Please be reminded that attacks on individuals or groups (such as Jews, Arabs, Muslims) are not appropriate for this forum. Such postings will be removed, and individuals who make such attacks will be barred from this discussion board.

Please post only within the Suicide Bombers thread. All new top-level threads will be deleted.

Falasteensadiqa · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

I will have an opportunity to watch this program on Monday, but I can already tell you that the description of the program already demonizes the Palestinian people, and misrepresents the Palestinian struggle against oppression and a brutal and racist occupier which is well-documented by many credible sources. I will reserve my comments, however, until I see the program in its entirety.

LibrarianLucien · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

Don't you think that if you go into watching a show when you've already made up your mind, that will prevent you from watching it objectively?
I didn't catch all of it, and I'm obviously coming at the issue from a different view than you, but what I did catch was interesting and seemed fair.

Boeing777 · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Canada

I have watched your program and found some of its parts quite interesting if not powerful. However, I think that this is a one sided view of the big picture. The Bombers had made some clear and very true and forceful statements that seem to have been ignored by the "voice" commenting the program. - It is all about dignity and basic rights. Any democracy should recognize the basic right of a population. Unfortunately, Israel doesn’t seem to care much about the Palestinians and that is not fair coming from a democracy.
One question that may not please many: Would the Israelis sit and watch if they were treated the way Palestinians are today?
The support of a super power even very unfairly at time doesn't mean that the world is in agreement. The US support’s credibility has gone from unfair to totally unobjective.
It is an occupation and we all know it. Give some right, dignity and respect to Palestinians if you think yourself civilized and more democratic than others. The arrogance of Israel towards this subject matter is not going to ease things up nor will it allow both Arabs and Jewish to live together.
_________________
Peace is something we do not something we talk about.

ashams · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

Dear Falasteensadiqa, the program actually seemed very objective and well balanced -- really well done journalistic work. Please hold your judgement until you have seen it.

elvir · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 7

Good program.

An accurate portrayal of the irrational Arab mindset

Disturbed by the testimony by the last fellow seeking revenge for being smacked by an IDF when young, "Smack me once" and he came back twelve years later to and kill a bunch of inoccent childern and your neigbours with a bomb "Smack you Twice".

Surprised to learn only imprisonment was penalty for suicide bombing - not quite as severe as other middle-eastern countries which which prefer beheading, lynching, burning, torture... etc.

These Martyrs dont want peace... I think we can all agree on that.

Ireland · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

This documentary was a decent effort relative to the rest of the coverage this topic gets on US television.
However I was extremely disappointed in the background given to the roots of the problem - collective punishments, destruction of livelihoods such as olive groves and orchards, continued expansion of settlements, sniper killings of children on rooftops, bulldozing of homes in search of "tunnels" and Mr. Sharon's "solution" - the Separation Barrier which is progressively winding its way well into the West Bank. Without this background one could never grasp the sheer desperation that drives young people to such desperate actions.
If Mr. Bush provided the price of a couple of Humvees and cluster bombs to the education system in Palestine these kids would not be so susceptible to believing what these recruiters promise them.

Dave B · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1 Location: New York, NY

What do you think should be done to find a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What should be done? To the best of my awareness the obvious fact that the occupation has been in violation of international law and UN Security Council resolutions for almost 37 years was not specifically addressed in the film. This is so basic, yet where was it?

1) Israel is incredibly more powerful than the Palestinians; military spokespersons for the government typically claim a military power ranking of about number 3 or number 4 -- in the entire world.

2) The partition of 1947 awarded about 56% of the land to about 32% of the people there, most of them fairly recent immigrants. Palestinians had no input into that inequitable partitionMuch additional land was taken in the five and one-half months leading up to the proclamation of the state, which, by the way, did not proclaim any borders.

3) By the time of the truce of 1949, Israel had about 78% of the land.

4) The 1967 war took, according to long-held objectives, the rest of partitioned Palestine -- and Israel attacked in that war; it was not attacked.
So the agenda, going back decades, of taking all the land, was fulfilled. And no, the partitioned land (UN General Assembly resolution 181) did NOT include Transjordan.

5) What has been in place for decades is an agenda of ethnic cleansing: Palestinians cannot return to Israel proper -- wherever the borders of that state are -- because that would impair the Jewish identity of Israel. On the other hand, Jewish settlers can settle anywhere they choose in the occupied territories in spite of the fact that such settlement impairs the Palestinian identity of Palestine. Different strokes for different folks.

6) Israel, a first-world country in terms of per capita income (around $14000 or $15000 a year) comprises in its population about one-thousandth of the world's population. Yet the government continues, without conditions, to receive an annual allocation of US foreign aid equal to somewhere between one-third and one-half. Yet the Wide Angle program, when it finally weakly addressed the question of the role of the US in the conflict, never touched on these huge disparities and the potential leverage implicit in them.

7) Israeli government policies of ethnic cleansing and ongoing, open-ended territoriaL expansion, basically the root of the hatreds, animosities and impulses for suicidal destruction in the conflict -- these policies have never been pro-Jewish. They have always been pro-gentile superpower. Which is exactly why Theodor Herzl, founding father, was a devout admirer of the gentile settler-master Cecil J. Rhodes, and not a devout Jew. Herzl later sought sponsorship and help from the goy German Kaiser, and the goy Ottoman Sultan. Still later, for decades, came the British crown, and, finally, the USA. Under these gentile-sponsored and enabled self-destructive policies, the ethnic cleansing project's biggest constituencies have always been gentile, including specifically and importantly the Protestant Fundamentalist Evangelicals, who believe fervently in these policies only because they -- so they are convinced -- pave the way to their mythical, vicious self-promoting Armageddon/Rapture garbage, in which all non-believers, certainly including Jewish as well as other people, will be destroyed. So just as with Sir Arthur James Balfour, a great proponent of immigration restriction on Central Europeans coming into England, and with many other notable world leaders who backed Israeli policies out of no love for Jewish people -- like Nixon in the 1973 War -- one could go on and on -- the biggest supporters are not pro-Jewish but progentile empire people, and often quite anti-Semitic in the bargain, as with President Nixon. I know it well -- I come from the Bible Belt Midwest. WAKE UP, PEOPLE!

Cool

Read David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East" (third edition, 2003) for starters. For many it will be an eye-opener.
_________________
DBB2004

PeaceOneDay · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 3

Palestinians would be alot less likely to strap on a belt to kill if they had a decent life at home. They only have themselves to blame. If Arafat and his cronies stopped putting foreign aid in their own pockets and instead started building schools, industry, hospitals, etc., the Palestianians would have something to live for. Perhaps they should also stop teaching kids to kill. If they stopped bombing, Israel would back off. It's a simple solution really.

boudreauspain · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

Your question is not the correct question. The question should be what causes terrorism. Would the Palestinians be using terrorism if the Jews were a minority and the Palestinians controlled their country? No, the Jews would be the terrorists as they were at the begining of the Israeli State. Would the IRA be terrorists if England had not moved Welsh and Scots into Northern Ireland? Again I do not think so. The terrorists are the weak and therefor if the powerful do not see value it the weak's argument and can not find a way to agreement the weak must choose between peaceful or military methods. Most people opt for violence.
Your story starts with the Palestine uprising. But again what caused the violence? Was it the failure of the peace process, because it offered the Palestinians an unacceptable spider web of a non funcional state, did you see the map, or Sharons march to the wall, which the PM at the time was against. Was it Israelis killing of stone throwing kids or was it decades of oppression imposed by Israel? The orgin of the problem colores the values system used to determine rights.
You also cover the role of religion in the Palestinians cause. But what role does God play for the Israeli's. Does God promise them a promised land to strive for? What role does God have in Israeli not accepting a two state system?
Your position assumes if the Palestinians give up almost everything the Israelis will provide a fair peace. But the Palestinians have offered several two state solutions which included a right to a Jewish state, but Isaeli response in every case was war, killing or oppression, check Noam C books for details. The interviewer asked what could the Palestinians do to solve the problem. The question should have been what does Israeli have to accept for the Palestinians to be satisfied to bring the process of terrorism to and end.
During the years the Oslo process was making head way the violence was minimal, given human nature to expect a total absents of terror after years of conflict was not rational. Peace could be obtained if Israeli was interested but I believe the record shows the Israelis are not ready to give up Gods promise of the promised land and until that happens the peace process is dead and terrorism will continue. Also I feel society seems to think killing of children ,elders and innocense with tanks and helicopters is not terrorism. I believe that killing is killing and in that game the Israelis are way ahead. Terrorism on both sides must be address and that will take actions by both leaders in changing the minds of the people on both sides. I do not see any effort by the Israelis or Palestinians. So terrorism will continue. I personal feel that if the killing of people is OK with military weapons killing with any weapons is at least to be expected if not also OK.
_________________
Ed Boudreau

peaceful88 · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 4

The documentary was very disappointing! and you can not discuss a solution for the whole conflict when you show only one part of the picture. You showed the damage caused by few young Palestinians but you ignored the organized Israeli military attacks on Palestinian civilians which killed more than 3300 including kids since 2001, and which is basicaly behind the rise of "Suicide Bombers".

yoni1974a · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 80

<<What did you think about the "Suicide Bombers" television broadcast? What measures should nations take to combat terrorism? Is strict security an effective way to prevent terrorism? Is terrorism against military targets ever justifiable? Is terrorism against civilian targets ever justifiable? What do you think should be done to find a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? We invite you to share your thoughts with us here.>>

I thought this was a very interesting show. though none of it was new to me.
I am a Jew who had lived and worked in Israel. I currently live in the united states.

The arab people as a whole never accpted the idea of a Jewish state from day one. Whether this was motivated by religion, politics or both, the fact is that many and most arabs never accepted the idea of a Jewish state in what was once Palestine.

The situation today in the occupied terriitories was borne out of this lack oif acceptance. One could arrgue that the territories are infact still occupied for this very reason. Arab refusal to accept Israel.

While many Jews immigrated to Palestine durring the 50 years before Israel's creation, so did many arab immigrate from surrounding lands durring this time.

I have pitty for the palestinians and their situation. They are suffering in part for the decsions made by their parents and grandparents regarding the Jewish state.

Imagine for a moment had the arabs accepted Israel after the 1948 war. There would have been no Israeli occupation. The west bank and gaza would have been what many palestinians want it to be today- a homeland for the palestinian people. But this never happened.
Arab countries occupied the territotires Israel occupies now. These arab counriesd kept their 'arab brethren' down, for 19 years, using them as pawns in the greater arab campaign to destroy Israel, which the arab nations tried to do 3 times before the Israeli occupation.
The arabs an the palestinians have missed opportunity after opportunity for peace.

What they want now, 100% of the west bank and gaza, they could have had some years ago. The Jordanians and egyptians could have given it to them, but they didnt- they used the palestinaisn as pawns in the gretaer arab conflict against israel/ they used their own people as a weapon-figuratively and literally.

Israel, whose emergence was rooted in the near anhialation of the Jewiish people in europe, had every reason not to give the terriitories to a group of people pledged to its destrecution after the 1967 war.
Israel fortified and settled this territory and rightly so. Its goal was to get the enemy to leave,thereby making Israel even stroinger, and to do this, Israel had to make things difficult for its enemy. True, not all arabs are enemeies of Israel, but those esepcially in the occupied terrirotires have had to be treated as such. Israel had to show the world, especially the arab world , that it was and is strong.

Today, palestinian economy is in shambles, and I accept that Israel may have had a role to play in this. But when you live with people who are comited to your destruction, and who refuse to make peace, what other choices did Israel have? Was it going to just accepot these people into its society, and roll out the red carpet? I think not- one does not invite the fox into the hen house.

Palestinians didnt choose to be under occupation. WHo would choose such a thing. That at this point, cannot be helpled.
The palestinians stilll have major choices to make, and need to think about them long and hard.
If they want to be accepted as a bonifide nation in this world, they need to put an end to suicide bombings. The taking of civiallian lives in such a way is never acceptable, period. Its a coward's attack.

They can choose to do this, they can choose to tak other positive steps towards a peacful soltion to the conflict, if they really want this. I doubt highly Israel will offer them 100% of what they want. Thirty some years ago they may have gotten that, had they chosen peace then, but they didnt, and they are suffereing now for it, andd will continue to suffer until they realize that thinkgs have changed.

Yes, I think Israel should withdraw from the most of the westbank, but not from all of it. It should withdraw entriely from gaza. The palestinans should recieve in return a contiguos portion of territory ion the westbank, and even israel proper in exchange for settlement blocks in the west bank( so long as the settlement blocks dont disrupt contiuguity). As for refugess, they cannot be accpeted in Israel, period. To do so would threaten israel as a Jewish state. As for Jerusalem, it can be shared.

None of this, or anything more or less can happen until the paletinians make some choices. Their fate is in their hands. Will they entrust their fate to cowardly suicide bomebrs and thugs or real leaders who will prepare them for a future of peacefull coexistance with Israel? Only time will tell.

To be quite honest, I dont think they can do it, at tleast not now, not unti lthey have true leadership. Thats when things will change. When arafat is gone, and a palestinian arises who understands that this is not 1967, that things are different, and that ones choices in life are so important to the quality of their life, quality which they seem not to have, in part becasue of their poor choiices as a socirety, only then will the conflict be able to be resolved. When the palestinians learn that life, no matter how bad, is better than death, then things will change- it will take a true leader so change this attiude amongst them. Durring wwII, it was this attitude that got many Jews through hitlers concentration camps. The palestinians could learn a lot from this.

Palestinian suicide bombers die because they have a beleif. Giving ones life for/ or dying for a beleif can be a knoble thing, but only when it makes the world as a whole, or even an individuyals world, a better place. The cowardly bombers do nothing of the sort. They destroy live of children, women, men, the detsoy lives in their own communities, they destroy their own communioty when they destroy themselves. The palestinians must as a whole come to see this, or things will never be better for them, ever.

buypeace · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

use capitalism to combat terrorism. give them something to lose. buy peace.

Edithann · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 5747 Location: Miami, Florida

Olympia · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Atlanta, Ga.

I thought the show was great. It was the first time I've ever heard from
the mouth of a Palestinian bomb maker and/or suicide bomber. Quite insightful! And scary. They sounded like propaganda spouting androids of religious dogma. I'd bet if you talked to twenty of them they'd say the same things. No opinion for themselves. Lackies for their hamas leaders. I guess you have to be that way if you're about to blow yourself up for the grim reaper.

What would the majority of Muslims in the world say about killing innocent victims? It's sad to see two cultures that have been around for thousands of years, and by the way, living together for most of those thousands of years, act with such hate towards one another. Hate begets hate and death begets death.

Does it matter who started it? Or who will finish it? I pray that the people of Israel and the people of the future state of Palestine, will, themselves open their eyes to the propaganda coming from the mouths of their leaders who seek political power from the spilled blood of their own people and neighbors.

If the Palestinian people had adopted the ideals of Gandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. and had marched hand in hand in non-violent resistance, they'd be free today. They'd have the sympathy of the whole world on their side. But do forgive me for saying that Palestinians have a capacity for sympathy. That sounds like empathy and from what I hear, that is an afront to a Palestinian man. I expect at least two whacks on my turned cheek for that.

When a moderate Palestinian can go against the flow and say they want peace, and not be killed by their Hamas brothers for being an Israeli sympathizer, that's when there will be a chance for peace. If there was a Palestinian leader who could stop murderers (just for one year) from killing innocent victims there would be a profound change in your living conditions. You'd be free. Free to ask your leaders, why did it take you so long to fight for peace, instead of fight for pride?
There's a saying that "fools do foolish things".
You've been fooled, wake up.
_________________
:^)

Edithann · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 5747 Location: Miami, Florida

The world did not owe Jews a homeland after WW2..What makes you think that they had a "right" to Palestine?..and that it's the Palestinians fault for not accepting Israel from the beginning..That argument and your treatis is all wrong..it's strickly revisionist Israeli propaganda..Arabs did not move to Palestine..They were always there..That's Golda Mier speaking.

If some group of people decided they needed a home..and decided yours was the one for them..and insisted you move out..I'm sure you would have a different attitude..I don't think you would accept it now or ever....

yoni1974a · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 80

to ed bordeau

<<Your position assumes if the Palestinians give up almost everything the Israelis will provide a fair peace. But the Palestinians have offered several two state solutions which included a right to a Jewish state, but Isaeli response in every case was war, killing or oppression,>>

This is in fact not the case. The two state solution for the arabs is basically un resoultion 242, and nothing more. Show me where I can see a map showing different PALESTINIAN soltions, and I would accept ewhat you say, but not before.

<<The interviewer asked what could the Palestinians do to solve the problem. The question should have been what does Israeli have to accept for the Palestinians to be satisfied to bring the process of terrorism to and end.>>

No. Suicide bombiing is a palestinian phenomenon, not an Israeli one. The palestinians need to choose not to use the killing of men womentr and children on busses by suicide.

Israel should then acccept the cessation of this phenomenon as a real statrign point towards a peaceful solution.

I can understand palestinians attacking a military outpost as one militant force acting gainst another, but what suicide bomebrs do it attrocious and an insult to humnaity. They illlustrate how low people can sink. How many children have they killed needlessly? Only a coward attacks someone unarmed, who cant fight back. Israel had every, every right toi retaliate in the way it does. The fact ius the terrorist suicide bombers bringiot on themselves. For israeli repriasla that result in the deatht of palerstinians are just that, reprisals, becasue of some heinous attack. There is one thing in the world worse than occupatiuon, you know. That would be a terrorist and his supporters

<<During the years the Oslo process was making head way the violence was minimal, given human nature to expect a total absents of terror after years of conflict was not rational. Peace could be obtained if Israeli was interested but I believe the record shows the Israelis are not ready to give up Gods promise of the promised land and until that happens the peace process is dead and terrorism will continue. >>

On the contrary, Ariel Sharon, the holder of the al-time reacord for settlemtn building, has changed his tune dramatically. No its not what the paerlstinaisn wast exactly, but then they have made poor choices in the past, which has led them to where they are now. We are each responsible for our own actions. The palestiniasn are no different.

.

yoni1974a · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 80

to ed bordeau

<<Your position assumes if the Palestinians give up almost everything the Israelis will provide a fair peace. But the Palestinians have offered several two state solutions which included a right to a Jewish state, but Isaeli response in every case was war, killing or oppression,>>

This is in fact not the case. The two state solution for the arabs is basically un resoultion 242, and nothing more. Show me where I can see a map showing different PALESTINIAN soltions, and I would accept ewhat you say, but not before.

<<The interviewer asked what could the Palestinians do to solve the problem. The question should have been what does Israeli have to accept for the Palestinians to be satisfied to bring the process of terrorism to and end.>>

No. Suicide bombiing is a palestinian phenomenon, not an Israeli one. The palestinians need to choose not to use the killing of men womentr and children on busses by suicide.

Israel should then acccept the cessation of this phenomenon as a real statrign point towards a peaceful solution.

I can understand palestinians attacking a military outpost as one militant force acting gainst another, but what suicide bomebrs do it attrocious and an insult to humnaity. They illlustrate how low people can sink. How many children have they killed needlessly? Only a coward attacks someone unarmed, who cant fight back. Israel had every, every right toi retaliate in the way it does. The fact ius the terrorist suicide bombers bringiot on themselves. For israeli repriasla that result in the deatht of palerstinians are just that, reprisals, becasue of some heinous attack. There is one thing in the world worse than occupatiuon, you know. That would be a terrorist and his supporters

<<During the years the Oslo process was making head way the violence was minimal, given human nature to expect a total absents of terror after years of conflict was not rational. Peace could be obtained if Israeli was interested but I believe the record shows the Israelis are not ready to give up Gods promise of the promised land and until that happens the peace process is dead and terrorism will continue. >>

On the contrary, Ariel Sharon, the holder of the al-time reacord for settlemtn building, has changed his tune dramatically. No its not what the paerlstinaisn wast exactly, but then they have made poor choices in the past, which has led them to where they are now. We are each responsible for our own actions. The palestiniasn are no different.

.

Edithann · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 5747 Location: Miami, Florida

I think "Wide Angle" on Suicide bombers was good piece of Journalism.
However, I wish you would have shown more of the devistation of the Palestinain areas..the bombed busses made the point .. but you missed the OTHER point in not showing the results of the targeted asassinations, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, and the destruction of their Orchards and farm lands..you seemed to gloss over a great deal of the everyday hopelessness of the people..and the choke hold the Israeli's have on the whole population...

I think it interesting that you find the necessity of examining the mind set of a Suicide bomber..when you should be looking and examining the external causes of what makes a young man in the prime of life want to become a Martyr...You can also ask that same kind of question to an IDF soldier at a Checkpoint..What makes him want to see a Palestinian father humiliated in front of his children?? It seems to me it's the same type of examination...wouldn't you think?

yoni1974a · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 80

<<The world did not owe Jews a homeland after WW2..What makes you think that they had a "right" to Palestine?..and that it's the Palestinians fault for not accepting Israel from the beginning..That argument and your treatis is all wrong..it's strickly revisionist Israeli propaganda..Arabs did not move to Palestine..They were always there..That's Golda Mier speaking.>>

Its not propaganda. I'm not some government agent withsomeone pulling my strings.

The idea of the Jews returning to the promised land was not new in 1948. Its a dream Jews have had for nearly 2000 years.

The fact that the Jews have a a religious connection to this land, in the way no other people on earth have a connection to this land, leads me to beleive that we have a right to live their. Whatsmore, we have a right to live there not under some other authority, but under our own authoruity, our own government.
Speaking from a religious standpoint, Muslim arabs who dominate the mideast saw and see a Jewish state as a usurpation of their religious authority- and they dont like it- if only for that reason, they want Israel gone, because in their minds it discredits Islam. Jews control the 3rd holiest sight in Islam. For nearly 1500 years Muslims controlled Jews under the guise that it was some how divine will, for whatever reason. Now, in a way, the tables have turned.

<<If some group of people decided they needed a home..and decided yours was the one for them..and insisted you move out..I'm sure you would have a different attitude..I don't think you would accept it now or ever...>>

Jews lived in that land for centuries, and our population began to grow quickly before any immigration ever occured. The Jews condsiider themselves as one people, no matter what country we live in. Theodore hertlze and ruso-european antisemitism made popular the idea to live together as a peiople once again, and so jews began moving en masse to Palestine, because thats the only other land we had any connection to.

The matter of fact is that as Jewws mioved into palestine, so did arabs. So should these arabs not have moved in either then? The dispossesions of paletsinian arabs didnt occur until the arabs refused to accprt a Jewish state. Hadthat happened, no palestinians would have been dispossesed.
The Jews, threatened with destruction once again, so close after the holocaust stoped at nothing to prevent anohter destruction, sadly, that meant dispossiion of arabs from their land. The arabs had other places they could have gone, and prosepered, had other arab goventments allowed them to proseper, which they didnt(at the same time always refering to them as arab /palestinais 'brethren') The other newly created arab nations treated their own peoiple this way.

CAMarina · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

"David":
Truly an excellent response/posting. Thank you for articulating reality. Now, lets hope for the best.
Cheers from California,
Shawn

shaksper · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 1

There are two groups of Palestinians: those who want peace and are willing to strike a deal; and those who want to destroy Israel and all Israelis. Israel has repeatedly negotiated with the first group, and the second has literally blown up any progress toward peace. Israel cannot stop the terrorist second group. Only the first group can do that, but they have to want to. Many are afraid to try.

In the meantime, Israel does what it can to defend itself. It attacks the leaders of the terrorists. It builds a wall to keep them out. Perhaps a de facto peace can come of this, but not a true and permanent peace. Should the Israelis offer more concessions? What is the point? The terrorists will not be pacified, only encouraged. Israel will just have to learn to live with a permanent war . And so will the peaceful Palestinians.

Michel · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 1 Location: San Jose, CA

Wow, I just finished watching the show and am impressed by its journalism. It makes me a little bit sad to see the polarization of many posts in this forum. Both Jews and Arabs seem to focus in this forum only on counting how many atrocities the other side did and I wish people would spend more energy on finding a solution starting in their camp.

clearthought · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 8

The extent to which propaganda has replaced knowledge of history is evident both in the suicide bomber who says Jews should go back to Russia or America where they came from AS WELL as from supposedly better educated Western posters who ask "How would you like it if somebody moved into your house?" Obviously, the most famous Jew of all, Jesus Christ did not come from Russia or America. He was born and raised in the region as was his ancestors--every bit as much as any Palestinian.

So, at least everybody needs to get the basic facts right. Both sides have ancestral roots in the "House".

But the bottom-line common sense answer to the question about attacking people you know are innocent to make a political point is a question about whether zero self-restraint is ever acceptable. If it is, then it must be so for all.

Which leads to an attempt at total genocide by both sides. That means The Israelis, if they ever adopted zero self-restraint the way the bombers do, at some point the Palestians would be indescriminately obliterated--not just the houses of bombers families are bulldozed. The singling out of just certain houses to bulldoze is an expression of self-restrained response aimed at specific perpretators rather than random indescriminate one aimed at any member of the race. ("Slap me once I slap you twice?")

Remember, if you validate totally unrestrained indescriminate killing for your side, you logically validate it for both sides.
Where does that lead? Thankfully at least one of the would-be bombers stopped when he considered that some of the people he was going to kill were good people who did not to oppress him. Therein lies the hope of humanity. ...but it needs nurturing.
_________________
common sense over emotion

Edithann · Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 5747 Location: Miami, Florida