PBS Discussions

santalone · Moderator Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 50

Should the rise of Islamic extremism in Saudi Arabia be a cause of concern for Western democracies?

TrueNorth1 · Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Toronto, Canada

Absolutely! Especially given the fact that a large number of the 9/11 highjackers originally hailed from Saudi Arabia and that there exist "questionable" ties between the Saudi Royal Family and the Bush Family. I would say that this is cause for great concern.

iverhythm · Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 395

Religion is the scariest issue we will be dealing with for years to come. It breeds fanatics. Education is the only answer.
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Form follows function

Samurai Chap

nasafi · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 1

Education , intersting , you guys should try it like opening a koran and reading it with open mind...

Saleem Hatoum · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 3

I really enjoyed this program. It was the first time that only Saudis were heard without a comment by a foreigner. I like these types of program that gives the subject freehand to talk their minds and hearts, given the fact a lot was censored because of the local culture.

Now what the esteem senator from DE was saying was more or less chicken talk. Laughing

Here look at these quotes:

Joseph Biden: Absolutely. And Israel is a democracy for god's sake. It's not even remotely, remotely, remotely, remotely comparable. No matter all the mistakes Israel made. It's not even remotely comparable. It's such a wacko comparison. It's such a ridiculous comparison.

So, a DEMOCRACY has a legal license to kill babies, children, women, men, and older people with JADAM, HELLFIRE, and Maverick missiles supplied by USA, demolish homes, torture, impose curfew for months on, and occupy (like other great democracies USA & India) other countries so A OKAY. If you are a democracy "for god's sake" you have the right to do whatever .......no checks and balance.

Mr. Biden, the way you were shaking your head while supporting all atrocities committed by the Zionist state you are in line of getting another neck brace prior to hurting your own neck bone. Please, don't hurt your ownself while supporting the "man of peace" Twisted Evil

rlkropp

perhaps you should open a HOLY BIBLE and read it with an open mind.

ralph_3000 · Last edited by ralph_3000 on Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

President bush waged a war against Iraq but He's yet to defeat Usama Bin Ladin in Afghanistan. War with any Arab Nation, even Israel, although achivable can create many problems with security in the United States. Did you know in WWII the U.S.A reconstucted entire nations and ideas in Europe. The U.S.A didn't Continued toward the middle east because our Funding had diminished after the war. The result is that Arab Nations Just want to compete with the world especially America, but they can't because their government are not a democracy. However, the invading of Arab Nations and introducing of democracy is a solution that will help them compete and solve their internal problems with their societies.

Especially the youth the middleast who are bored by religion in general.

"The stupid are cocksure(fundamentalist), but the intelligent are full of Doubt(Educated teenagers)"

I don't know about the terrorism but America is Here to Stay!!!

ralph_3000 · Last edited by ralph_3000 on Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:06 am; edited 2 times in total

Islamic Extremist have gone the fardest with their fundamentalism.

Orthodox Judaism have gone far with their fundamentalism.

Christian Evangelism are close to controling the world with their fundamentalism.

Now you say again if holy books(al Koran, Torah, and The Holy Bible) have done enything good for this planet.

cdhj12000 · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 1

I enjoyed the program. It was much more informing and less biased than the average network news programs and other mainstream media. They showed a side of the, dare I say, "native" Muslim people that I had never seen before during this international, yes, international crisis. I apologize if my using the word "native" to describe the people I saw on that program offends anyone, I just couldn't think of a better word to use at the moment. I suppose Iraqis would have worked, yes? Anyway, the senator, though outspoken and rude in the way he was constantly interrupting the interviewer, did earn my respect due to his passion for what he believed in, though I disagreed with most of it. Much like I respect the passion of people who are willing to die for what they believe in no matter what the cost.

This war that is going on now will eventually become a more spiritual/religous inspired war to more than just the Muslims. If one pays attention, the tell-tale signs can already be noticed throughout the United States in how religion is beginning to take a role in peoples' lives in supporting the war in Iraq. Since the U.S. is the major influence in societies throughout Western culture and quickly spreading to the East, it probably won't be long until the rest of the world is singing whatever Americans want them to sing. I just hope it's a good tune.
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I try not to judge people (not my job), I try to be accepting of other peoples' ways, and that makes me happy.

wazup? · Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 1

I also enjoyed this documentary on Saudi Arabia, but saw Sen. Byden as very arrogant, self-centered, and impolite to the interviewer. It's too bad the interviewer could not continue her 'Israel' question. She should have challenged the sentor when he called Israel a democracy. If one reads international news, one knows of the atrocities committed by this so-called 'democracy.' Our best newpaper, the NYT will not report the truth on this issue. Perhaps Michelle Hussaini (BBC) would have confronted the senator? North American, popular journalists are worthless on the topic of Israel.
Sentor Byden - get a clue! with a bit of thought and historical perspective, we should finally be able to answer the question: Why do they hate us? Israel plays a large part in this hate, and to deny this is to live in a fantasy world.

Dustin · Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 1

It seems to me that the rise of any religious extremeist organization should be a cause for concern for anyone in the world not just western democracies. Whenever a group of people decide that their way is the right way and venture to destroy any opposing ideologies (i.e USA, Christian and Islamic fundamentalists, Natzis, Romans, British Empire), you are going to cause violent backlash, and that backlash will be used by that extremeist group as confirmation of their efforts. Religion is not inherently bad. There are many great ideas and moralities you can learn from Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Budhism, Hinduism, and many other religions. However, when those religions start to be the basis for intolerance of peaceful living and are wheilded like a sword of reckoning by a religious finatic bent on revenge for his or her short commings, the world must watch out. It is hard for one person to deny another person's religion without stepping on the person's fundamental belief that their religion is the right religion because it was ordained by God. If it is truly God that created these religions, then why do all the scriptures connected to its respective religion set the stage for denying any other religions? Personally, I believe God would not be such a damn fool as to confuse all the world with these conflicting authorities of religion, and maybe, just maybe, it was a man's own vain attempt to corner the market on the best selling religion.

ralph_3000 · Last edited by ralph_3000 on Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total

if God gave America the science and the abilities to develope nuclear winter

and other countries or terrorist find the abilities to persue it as well .

Does that give them the God given right to use them.

ralph_3000

what i understood from this documentary was that humans create crazy things when their rich and bored Example "al qaeda"created by the Sons & Daughters of these religious Saudis who are rich, because of tithe and oil revenues.

Just look at rich teenage white Americans who created all kid of sports rock climbing, surfing, skatebording, cyberAthletes and many more extreme sports.

Religion just got the best of Saudis' youth just think "pinky & the brain"

Tony Gatts III · Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Alaska

Unfortunately they will continue to faulter. Until such time as the dichotomy of religous fervor and the freedom from it is dealt with and that cannot be done until contentous belief systems are wiped clean of their society. In the middle east! Ha ... Not in our lifetime or theirs. Occam's razor should be applied here. Simply put, Saudi's population is rising, half is under 30 and average per person income has dropped to just over $3000 a year and it's still going down, sharply. There have been 52 wars/conflicts since WWII and all but 2 have occured in countries where the per person wage is under $3000 a year. That correlation of these two simple facts in connection with the current unrest with the established government is startling. I don't see how they can succeed but I hope they do. For if Saudi Arabia goes, the energy bread basket of the world. We the world will, if not embrace the chaos of that country, certainly edge ourselves closer to the rim of the abyss that is economic and political armageddon.

DERF2003 · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 8558

I guess I am not wholly in agreement. Of course, education is important.

I'm even in agreement that those that are fanatical about religion have tendencies to do horrible things in the name of that religion. Hence we certainly have to be concerned about terrorism from those that have extreme views.

I submit, however, that religious fundamentalism is not at the heart of the problem. Some or all of the following are closer to the causes of the problem than religious fundamentalism:

1. Economic exploitation by the West (especially oil).
2. Support of puppet governments by the West.
3. Paternalistic attitudes by the West.
4. Failure of the USA to remove troops from Saudi Arabia after Gulf War I.
5. USA foreign policy favoring Israel over the Palestinians and Arabs.

And last but not least, the recent invasion of Iraq by the USA and the coalition of the willing has fomented additional resentment that is allowing hatred to spread out-of-control.

Through the eyes of those living in the Middle East the invasion was not because Iraq was a threat (Notice the number of Muslim dominated nation states that joined the coalition.) From what I have read it seems that a commonly held belief in that region is that the USA and the coalition attacked Iraq not because of Iraqi's WMD's, but because that country is in the middle of the oil breadbasket of the world and is strategically important. Furthermore, many people in that area believe that the attack was not really because Iraq was a threat to the USA, but because it was a threat to Israel.

I did not see the whole program, and only caught the end. I stopped surfing at the channel as Biden's body language and dogmatic statements were intimidating the interviewer. If the whole program was of that caliber, it should be moth balled and never shown again. In short, what I saw was propaganda preparing the American public for the next war.

Samurai Chap · Last edited by Samurai Chap on Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total

Saleem Hatoum · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 3

Ignorant and hatefilled post. I can open the books of Jews and Christians along with baptist sermons to add more juice Zionist handout let this forum turn into a trash pan.!

Samurai Chap

eackad · Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Toronto

It's not Islam specifically, but all religions (and their books). You should realise that the goal of education is to learn to reason not to gain knowledge (if that where the case google would be the smarted of us). When you are told *how* to think you loose your inquisative nature and you become ripe for someone else's adgenda.

If you want to understand how the and why the holy books can be used the way they are by fundamentalists you need to read 1984 by Orwell. Remember all books are written by the oppressed in order to start a movement to be the oppressors, so they had to have a push for violence and a survival instinct. Religions behave as evoling animals, adapting to the environement by changing etc.
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Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
- Thomas Jefferson

gcs · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 868

show me one. The islamic faith is an agressive and hate-filled one which deems itself superior. How is that such a faith can convince or deceive young children to strap bombs on themselves and go kill other women and children. You don't see jews, christians or even hindus doing that.

How about the n.y. times articles describing life in an arab pakistani village where the upper class of men gang rapes another man and then accuses him of sleeping with one of their sister's. By the way, homosexuality is a rampant problem especially pederasty among arab tribal villages. Then the village religious leader orders that one of the man's sisters be gang raped by the same men to atone for his "sin" of having a relationship with a woman of higher class.

There is no equivalent. Unfortunately, the arab and islamic culture today is predominately ignorant and bigoted and focused on oppressing its own people as well as anyone else. It is islam and arab culture which labels the current situation as a jihad and declares that killing woman and children is honorable and moral. You must examine your own culture before you begin criticizing the judeo-christian one, which has led this world in the advancement of civilzation and justice. Just take a look around the arab countries. They are jokes.

eackad · Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Toronto

I don't know abot the validity of your claims (but I don't doubt it). As to if the Book of Mohammed says exactly these things, I doubt it. It is a problem of interpretation by ignorant people. This prolem is still in the Western world just hidden. By Bush banning stem cell research countless Billions are left to suffer and die from deseases we could cure (it's like banning the research on Penicilin 10 years before it was discoved).

Christians lauched the Nuclear Bomb. Jews take tanks to civilians. The religion doesn't make the person. A crazy Islamic person would act the same if he was Christian and in a similar situation. People are killers (that's our history), but the only way to fight ignorace is with truth i.e. science.

Heck, some regions still believe in Vampires (and angry mobs have actually killed real people recently for harboring Vampires)!!
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Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
- Thomas Jefferson

gcs · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 868

to ;

Jews do not take tanks to civilians. It is Arabs and muslims who take children human bombs to civilians. There entire goal is to kill and frighten as many civilians. That is they are terrorists.

When Israel kills civilians it is because arab terrorists hide behind and around woman and children knowing israel will be respectful of innocent life. They also use woman and children as human bombs. So it is the arabs and muslims who denegrate human life. Just look at any arab nation. I do not think it is necessarily the islamic religion completely, it is also the arab culture.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 9130 Location: At large

gcs · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 868

clara:
it is refreshing to know you are a communist. So mush for using your logic intellect. Anyway, what is the source of this quote. There is no analogy between the hundreds of unarmed peaceful protesters that the chines governemt shot and ran over, versus the israeli fight for its existence against muderous and nefarious enemies. The demolition of houses is done after court review and is done to homes of terrorists, people who have killed women and children deliberately. I can assure you israel investigated this incident and if a soldier knowingly demolished a home while the woman was there he would have been prosecuted. You know as well as I do, that the governement takes great care to evacuate and remove and resettle the people befoe the home os destroyed. This girl was obviously manipulated by the terrorists so she could die to promote their cause. It is the palestinians you should be angry at.

If you want to discuss the entire conflict be my guest. The Palestinians have absolutely no legal or moral claims against the israelis and they were clearly the aggressors throughout the entire conflict.