PBS Discussions

santalone · Moderator Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 50

In the mid 1990s, thousands of Salvadoran nationals living illegally in the U.S. were deported to their homeland. Some of the returnees brought L.A. gang culture back with them. By recruiting thousands of local teenagers, gangs ignited brutal turf wars and expanded further into El Salvador. Use this space to share your thoughts on the civil conflict in El Salvador, gang violence, the cycle of migration and transnational criminal activity, and the efforts both El Salvador and the United States have taken to curb violent crime.

achebee · Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 2

Many will not like what I have to say.
But that's not why I'm saying it.I'm letting you know what is happening and my thoughts on the situation.
I'm in Honduras..I have lived here for 25 years. I've seen the changes and I've seen the gang explosion here and across the border in El Salvador.
I could list here the names of over 15 people I've known personally who have been murdered by gang members.. My freinds are buisness men and church leaders, and middle aged people...not crack dealing teenagers in the middle of the gang neighborhoods...
These punks will kill you for your cellphone...it happens everyday...
Thelast bad news I got from the Capital city a month ago from my wife's family was that their very close friends an older couple in their 60's, she being the hairdresser for my mother in law, and him a school teacher were walking the 300 yards from the Catholic church after mass to thier home at mid day, and 2 gang members jumped out quickly asking for the cellphone..the man refused and told them to get a job..they shot and killed him right there, and took the cellphone, cursed at the lady, and walked away as if nothing had happened..
I will not go on, If you want first hand reports just google El slavador or Honduran newspapers and read the daily news, it's incredible and it doesn't stop..
The police are afraid of these gangs..they will murder family members of the police people if they are suspected of going against them...
Long story short, there has been a developing vigilante sytem springing up over the last couple years...People are taking the situation into thier own hands and killing these worms on the street...It's working..
This is the only way to control this problem here...
Not long ago 18 gang members were assasinated in one night in one barrio alone...a message to the 18 gang...
It continues...daily... If someone doesn't get rid of these guys they will continue to rape and steal and murder...
They are uneducated, the majority of them, and absolutely worthless ...
I know this is a hard line to follow, but it is really the only way that this is going to be handled...the governments will not do anything about it... Everyone including myself that can afford it has personal body guards and security personel around homes and buisness' 24 hours a day...
I am in agreement with the vigilante movement... It is the only way to handle this situation, period... I can imagine the the tone of the responses I will get from this if any...but again, I'm just telling you how it is here and in Salvador... the vigilantes have gone so far as to burn the prisons down that house the gang members..last year 65 of 300 housed in a facility built for 100 burned to death in their cells... A concrete building.....So explain that one??? It's handled from the inside...I know of no one person (and I know alot of people having been here for as long as I have) who has not been personally affected one way or another by violent gang actions...No One... Everyone has either been assalted or seen it coming down, or had a freind or family member killed by these worms...
So take it or leave it... Private vigilante maintenance is the only functioning solution at the moment..
And the press you guys give concerning this situation does not even come close to giving an idea of the absolute destruction these gangs are causing in this part of the world...
Sorry if I offended you or anyone..but I'm calling as I see it...
Oh yes, in the event you are wondering why I am here...I'm leaving..asap.. I'm liquidating my buisness and property and selling out and leaving..It is out of control,period... and I realaize that I am fortunate being able to do so.

Leeslaughtr · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 6 Location: Washington DC

I RESPECT WHAT YOUR SAYING BECAUSE YOU LIVE THAT EVERYDAY AND NEVER WORRY ABOUT ANYBODY BEING OFFENDED BECAUSE MOST WHO SPEAK ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD OFFEND ANYWAY. I APPRECIATE YOUR INFO AND THE TRUTH IT SETS US ALL FREE.
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john doe

chrisbak55 · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 2

Good to see the type of immigrants liberals are so anxious to allow into this country, however I seriously question PBS's decision to air this program at 9:00 PM.

db63 · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

I work with the US Immigration Service and have dealt with these gangs for quite a while. That program that was aired was the biggest peice of fluff I have ever seen. The filmaker shows these animals to be caring family types who are struggling with their inner demons. They do not have inner demons, they are just demons. I suppose the next documentary these idiots make will be about how Al Qaeda loves puppy dogs.

JimSo · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

"Good to see the type of immigrants liberals are so anxious to allow into this country"

Why on earth would anyone make the assumption that liberals want gang members as immigrants? Confused

Imorike2 · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1 Location: NY

I do not understand this hate for immigrants that I am reading on these posts. It is a very careless and ignorant view to categorize all immigrants as gruesome gang members. First of all, think about our very own country, and the number of Native Americans that were raped and slaughtered so that we could tend to these lands better than any of the "savages." In fact this comes to show that we ourselves live on a stolen land based on genocide, so what right do we have to judge.

sopita · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1 Location: USA

During the 1980s, as I met Salvadorans traumatized by the systematic brutal violence that was supplied with US weapons and performed with US training, I frequently commented, "How will the children growing up in this ever be normal? If (as we were seeing a lot on Oprah... in the '80s) domestic violence can lead to generations of violent dysfunction, what will become of this entire nation?"

That's what I said in the 80s and this is what I see now. Now I wonder, what will become of the Iraquis and the Sudanese...growing up today?

By the way, I favor a wide opening of our borders to immigrant workers and their families, but by no means do I favor allowing gang members or other brutal criminals to come or remain in the US. I'm a real, living, breathing liberal and I favor deportation of gang members. Those who have suggested that liberals want criminal immigrants are grossly misrepresenting my and many others' position.

truthiness · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 10 Location: USA

Interesting to see what 100 yrs of imperial control of an area will bring in my 50 years of life here in the USA the powers that be always said that we americans were backing the democratic contender show me that democracy. Killing societies so that those enconced in power can live on as arbitors of plutocratic control can't go on for all you need to do is look around you here in USA your vote doesn't count nafta, cafta, were not our choices immigration isn't our choice, this war isn't our choice, the money spent on homeland security could have paid up the Social Security defict, but ahhh profits would not of rolled to the politically powerful, the thuggery you just witnessed is but a small reflection of the thievery that is our politicans stealing TRILLIONS for the connected, entrenched, plutocracy we call DEMOCRACY. In the strongest words I say these boys are but pikers compared to United Fruit, BP, Haliburton,Exxon etc., and the machine that keeps spending our money for war as a racket (thanks to a great patriot Smedly Butler) Rolling Eyes

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Without compassion and the love of mankind we walk alone

izzycara2 · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

To Achebee. It's so sad that what should be one of the nicest places in the world to visit has become one of the least desirable to visit. Who could blame you for wanting to leave given the danger your family is in.
Unfortunatley, its the educated, the ones most cabable of making a change, that are fleeing.
Most of these gang members have grown up in deep poverty, from broken homes and have little or no education.
When you get to the US, help to raise funds to help educate the young and offer them a better way of life. Programs to teach the young, They need hope, education and real heroes. Someone from the barrios that has made it and cared enough to come back.
Something has to change. Or as bad it is, it will get much worse

truthiness · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 10 Location: USA

I don't doubt what you say but didn't we fight for your right to live in a democracy and as such who gave you the right to hire tuffer thugs to protect yourself, in otherwords who made you GOD the democracy you live in must turn its head when you have your thugs kill. This is an example of PLUTOCRACY the top gets by without consequences.
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Without compassion and the love of mankind we walk alone

truthiness · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 10 Location: USA

Who would suspect liberals of wanting that; Shocked

the kind of low life that inhabit the highest office in the land Karl, Ari, Scott, these mouthpieces have pushed that r-wing nazi propaganda so as to rally base and put fear in the rest of us I am not afraid for I speak from TRUTHINESS.
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Without compassion and the love of mankind we walk alone

Tamerlane91 · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

That show was very informative and it helps me and hopefully everybody understand the consequences of democracy without education as the focus of a society.Religion was officiated and acknowledge in everyyway. But in a society that has a pagan past it incorporate the modern explanation of unreasonable nature of human behaivior. Those guy are psychopath. The country is breading a worse kind of terrorism. An inner destruction of its own. This in return was created by the culture of political correctness of the west. And im sure the politics of this is being ignored right now by the people up in our government. Until we are hit by another disaster coming from our own backyard. All in all i can see that those guys are being driven by ego that is so immature and looking for attention. This i saw in every individual portayed in the film.
Now what should we do as such a highly educated society.
We have to start good and emphasize education in this countries.

StarsandStripesforever · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1 Location: Houston, Texas

Sadly, I did not get to see the entire wide angle program on the effects of US immigration policy on El Salvador. However, what I did see convinced me that the program was biased against the USA. How do these people expect me to take them seriously when the announcer was trying to trap the former US ambassador to El Salvador into denouncing US immigration policy? Oh, and right, I should feel responsible for the criminal activity of former illegal aliens in El Salvador because they became criminals in the US and were deported. More of the same: things are bad in Mexico and Central America so, obviously, it is the fault of the USA. From what I saw, these were a bunch of killers, punks, and criminals that rightly got the boot. Sad

truthiness · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 10 Location: USA

S&S forever I'm glad somebody died and made you the boss (nuke em and let god sort it out got us to this) unless we engage these human beings on their humannity "katy bar the door they" will be the terrorists of tomorrow. Might doesn't make right but it made the society they live in, so look at the seeds we sow change the paradigm.
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Without compassion and the love of mankind we walk alone

trytelaberdeen · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 5

If I were you I would get my family out immediately. You can stay and handle the business end. Also make sure your bodyguards are American or European. If they can instill fear in the local authorities, what will stop some puke from falling into a threat or bribe? Best of luck…

Sawbox · Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 37

This program left out a significant factor in the current situation of El Salvador and its population of poor people--the 12 years of "civil war" were financed by the US.

THE U.S. PROVIDED $6 billion in military support to El Salvador during this period. This in a country no larger than the state of Massachusetts. The U.S. supplied the warplanes, including gunships, bombs, M16 rifles, machine guns, military "advisors" & political support. It provided subsidies for El Salvador’s ruling elites- for most of that period, for every tax dollar the U.S. awarded the regime, El Salvador’s ruling families deposited $1.20 abroad. The U.S. took the side of extreme violence and corruption in a conflict whose roots were in the bitter poverty and repression of the vast majority of Salvadoran people. Central America’s killing machines were owned and operated by the United States government.

In March, 1993, a United Nations Truth Commission report was released on what it called "some of the worst and most widespread violations of human rights in El Salvador", committed between 1980 and 1991. The Commission was able to investigate 25,000 of more than 75,000 deaths in this period, and concluded 85% were committed by the Salvadoran military- aided & abetted by its co-conspirator, the United States government.

The U.S. media coverage of the outbreak of civil war in El Salvador was dangerously misleading. Either through willful misinformation or ignorance, the major media supported a misguided U.S. foreign policy that threatened to embroil Americans in another Vietnam War.

A popularly promoted media myth was that the current government of the tiny Central American country is a "moderate" junta, struggling to maintain order in the face of left and right-wing extremist minorities. However, Murat Williams, a former U.S. ambassador to El Salvador, and other observers, report that the "left" is more accurately a heterogeneous mix of peasants, students, teachers, priests, nuns, and middle-class businessmen, comprising about 80 percent of the population. What remains is less "center" than "right," comprised chiefly of the military and the oligarchy.

The few "moderates" of the civilian-military junta and the Cabinet of 1979 had resigned by January 1980, despairing of any real governmental reforms.
Further, the U.S. press has generally perpetuated the belief that the bulk of El Salvador's estimated 10,000 assassinations in 1980 were the work of "Marxist-inspired guerrillas" or reactionary right-wing forces. But records of the Legal Aid Office of the Catholic Archdiocese of San Salvador show that government military units themselves were responsible for 80 percent of the country's political assassinations.

Another media myth is that Cuban- or Russian-inspired guerrillas were the cause of El Salvador's social upheaval rather than the country's real enemy-a century of economic and social injustice.

There was also much media-generated paranoia regarding Cuban or Russian arms shipments to the "leftist guerrillas," obscuring the reality of an alarming U.S. military buildup in El Salvador. According to the Institute for Policy Studies, U.S. security assistance to El Salvador between 1950 and 1979 totaled $16.72 million; in 1980 alone, more than $5.7 million in U.S. military aid was sent to El Salvador and U.S. military advisers were stationed there.

That terror was committed in El Salvador is not disputed. Those who doubt this should realize that an estimated 75,000 were killed in this small country in the period 1980 to 1991. The truth commission found that the terrorism that was committed in the country was overwhelmingly governmental terrorism, committed by the Salvadoran army, the National Guard, and their death squads and affiliated agencies. They were responsible for 95 percent of the deaths, the guerrillas for only five percent.

These were the same institutions that were the concern and the favorites of Washington-receiving its indoctrination and training and profiting from its largess. El Salvador received six billion dollars in aid from Washington in the period 1979 to 1992. This subsidy to the tiny country during the government repression and terrorism came to average out at $100,000 for each member of its armed forces. This subsidy allowed the government to pay for the terrorist activities committed by the security forces. By virtue of this largess and the military training, notably in counterinsurgency warfare, Washington emerges (In this chapter)as an accessory before and during the fact. By covering up for San Salvador after it had committed terror, Washington was an accessory after the fact. It gave diplomatic support to state terrorism. By training and equipping the Salvadoran security forces in, and for, counterinsurgency warfare, Washington served as an accessory before and during the fact.

ESMYCOUNTRY · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 2

I really feel sad about all this because after all is my country of birth; I left the country in 1989 when I was still a teenager, so I got to see the civil war first hand, but it was nothing compare to the problem of the gangs that the country is going through at this time. In my opinion, knowing what happened during the cival war, I know that the politicians are always to blame for what happens because they always look for their own best interest and not for the country they represent....why do you think civil war started in E.S? The poor, unedcuated and innocent people always pay the consequences. I agree with the U.S immigration policy, to keep bad people out of its borders, but if they pass all the bad seeds to another part of the earth, the bad seeds start to spread around elsewhere in this case, El Salvador and all the other latin countries. So, the cycle starts again, and more people are going to leave the country to come to the U.S for a better life. The real solution lies on the education we give our children now and to their parents. Invest in education for both, parent and child now, so we can see a change in the future.

ESMYCOUNTRY · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 2

I really feel sad about all this because after all is my country of birth; I left the country in 1989 when I was still a teenager, so I got to see the civil war first hand, but it was nothing compare to the problem of the gangs that the country is going through at this time. In my opinion, knowing what happened during the cival war, I know that the politicians are always to blame for what happens because they always look for their own best interest and not for the country they represent....why do you think civil war started in E.S? The poor, unedcuated and innocent people always pay the consequences. I agree with the U.S immigration policy, to keep bad people out of its borders, but if they pass all the bad seeds to another part of the earth, the bad seeds start to spread around elsewhere in this case, El Salvador and all the other latin countries. So, the cycle starts again, and more people are going to leave the country to come to the U.S for a better life. The real solution lies on the education we give our children now and to their parents. Invest in education for both, parent and child now, so we can see a change in the future.

REMF · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

Being a Vietnam combat veteran and have kept up with the world, bottom line-GANGS--are terriorist. Something I notice that no one eluded to was the fact that the weapons; as are most terriorist have; were US military stock. How do they continue to get into the hands of the gangs and terriorist? Ask the same people that run this government that have a empathetic view of the poor and disadvantaged and that make the policies.

Him_razorblade_romance · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 2 Location: L.A

<font color="purple">It's just sad seeing how our country is going down. I understand why the goverment is so keen upon us hispanics cause these idiots come here to the U.S and mess everything up. Still, not all of us are like those bastards; if they have no love for themselves, they're not gonna love anyone else. They're simply low lives. Crying or Very sad

I do approve of these idiots being deported back, but on the other hand, they our bring our countries economy down... way down. In 2 weeks I'll be going back to El Salvador, I can't even take my jewelry cause of the situation. The gang members have my uncle on check. My uncle is a hard working man that sells bread daily [sometimes he only sells a dollar worth of bread] Evil or Very Mad

; the gang members will jack you for anything ranging from: jewelry, cd players, cellphones, glasses [cause the fame might look like "gold" or "silver"]; really these simpletons are the ones at fault for bringing down the country after civil war. About time that they showed something about my country too... all they do is mexico mexico mexico [don't take it wrong, they just pay lil attention to the smaller countries]..... I love my country but I also love El Salvador and it hurts me to see that we're not wanted here in the U.S... sometimes I just wish I wasn't even born here </font> Sad

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It's sad seeing what the world has come to. Anger and racism amonsgt each other. There will never be peace.

weedzar · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

Liberals, schmiberals. It's fatcat corporate heads and business owners who are hiring illegals. What is up with a culture wherein a woman will abandon her infants to come here and work as a nanny or housekeeper for some rich American, and not send any money home? By the way, looked to me like they learned gang violence and terminology (like "homies") from African Americans, so let's put the problem in their laps.
What are El Salvadorans doing to solve my problems? Nothing?? Then why is it implied in this program that they are somehow my responsibility? Anyone who thinks "we" should be helping these gang members should just volunteer to take a bunch of the poor misunderstood things into their own home and see how it goes, before dumping them on an abstract "someone" who is supposed to rehab them.

Him_razorblade_romance · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 2 Location: L.A

Well what are Salvi's doing for you guys? Plenty. They distribute your darn food, the high society clothing such as gap and old navy for some damn 5 dollars a day.... i hope that one day if we're all kicked out of the u.s, hopefully, you guys will be working the decent jobs such as janitors, and house cleaners, and prepare your own food in the restaurants cause we arent asking for your sympathy or empathy, you dont need to have responsibility over us. Just wory about your life please and stop judging us and saying we're all the same Shocked

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It's sad seeing what the world has come to. Anger and racism amonsgt each other. There will never be peace.

JuanCal123 · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

I just need to say, this is like a small scale history repeat, this is almost waht England did with Australia, we have to understand that people in this country can be uneducated and have no aspiring goals and been in such a position these disgusting, moronic ugly bastards of criminals, I really hate these type of people use there so called street smart to illusione these kids in these countries and give them goals that are just umentioable, it makes me want to scream and eraticate these criminals, get rid of them!!! just let them disantegrate, It make me angry when I picture these children been face to face with some tatoed loser and assinine ideas!! I just really want to scream!!! . I have had 8 years of education and I have a minor in Western History and I have to tell you this is history repeating itself we have to stop this, why can't we the US just put these guys in Death row and call it a day. I really want to say that sociology and and Ethics and history are great warning and teaching of this event. I really can't stand it when something like this is happening. My family is from El Salvador, but I was a one year old when I came to america. and hearing thisjust really make me angry, families there if they only understood how important it is to have goals and drive their children to an education. It's darn important. I really want to say more I need to collect my thoughts.
I hope to respond some more another day

seekingtruth · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 1 Location: Houston

As a Salvadoran I am very discouraged to see the cuddling of these monsters. They are the terrorists that lurk in our neighborhoods and our surrounding nations, and have no regard to laws. These animals need to be hanged for the atrocities that they have caused. The gangs though in central america are protected by the human right nut cases. Everytime the government tries to come down on these morons the human rights groups are there to defend them. How can a nation progress if you cannot punish those that are breaking the law. I support the Mano dura the president has initiated but I believe that he needs to begin internally. He needs to fire and jail those that are corrupt. Also he needs to revamp the prison system. They need to put the leaders of these gangs in isolation and not allow them to meet with other gang members. I am angry that the president and the wardens allow drug use in the prisons. Also, the fact that they allow meetings and orders to be delegated astonished me. They are in prison for God's sake they do not deserve any freedoms. I was embarrased at the igonrance of the policemen. You know that a vermin just died, and with every death they have a ritual dismissal of the dead gang member. So why not raid the wakes and round up these punks. Oh but wait they need to respect the dead, the dont even deserve a proper burial. Another thing, the ambassador has the wrong idea if she believes that salvadorans are going to return and retire in El Salvador. People think twice about going to visit for a few days! What makes her think that they will want to live thier golden years there, unless they want to reach the grave sooner. I brought up the idea to my parents to go back and they laughed at the notion of living there. Also, as long as these morons are in control of this nation they will never grow economically. The Salvadoran government needs to improve thier public school system, needs to promote secondary education, and needs to provide incentives to allow MNCs to invest in this small nation. If this occured it will decrease the emigration and it will allow families to stay together. This will allow the kids to develop properly and not depend on the gangs to be thier guide. I support the deportation of criminals but both governments need to work together to track these gangs. Also El Salvador needs to efficiently use the funds that it recieves from the US. El Salvador needs to take advantage of the fact that they are the only nation in the western hemisphere that is part of the Iraqi Coalition. They need to utilize the experience for gang task forces and the knowledge that they can receive to deal with the gangs. Until the people of this nation begins to stand up to these little punks the future of this Beautiful nation is grim. The people need to take in thier Motto and use it effectively; Have faith in DIOS, the people need UNIDAD, and they shall achieve LIBERTAD from these demons.