PBS Discussions

santalone · Moderator Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 50

What do you think of France's decision to ban headscarves in schools? Will the ban further alienate the large Muslim population or integrate them further into French society? What were your reactions to this week's WIDE ANGLE?

jbh · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

I am angry that a programme that was supposed to be about a girls right to wear a headcovering or not didn't tackle the issue. It turned into a program about Muslims in France, which is certainly an interesting topic and deserves investigation. The issue of why the headcovering is worn wasn't covered. Only one girl was focussed on and she had uncertain reasons for wearing it, her father had died and religion had become important to her.

But there is no getting around the fact that the headscarf represents an suppression of women. It is possible to be modest without covering one's head. The equality question should have been tackled. If girls in French schools should be allowed to wear veils then should women Muslim countries be free not to?

It makes me angry that there was no discussion of patriarchy and religion.

bagelundercouch · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 15 Location: USA

this program did not address at all the fact that france has endured hundreds of years of civil wars over religious issues...that might be a good idea next time it decides to address something of this sort.

the program also failed to recognize that crucifixes, yarmulkes, hindu amulets and head painting, and pentagrams have also been outlawed. no one thought that was important enough to cover. it's interesting to see that the only aspect of this debate the media is seeming to cover is the muslim side. i really don't appreciate that. sure, they may be trying to heal the breach between the american muslims and the american non-muslims, but honestly...what happened to a non-biased media?! the other icons are just as important to the other cultures, but no one seems to care.

the veil is a symbol, just like the others. it is not your life. my crucifix is a symbol of my faith. i wear it proudly. but i do not boast it. this is what many franco-muslims are trying to do, i fear. outraged by their ''downtrodenness'' by the french government, they find any way they can to act out? setting cars on fire, dropping out of school, displaying at the french and algeria football game, wearing the headscarves to school whilst they are outlawed...i smell a nation of dramaqueens. the veil is NOT a necessity to the muslim faith! it is modesty, it is conformity, it is beautiful in its own way. but in a country where religion makes way for the state, it has no place, just as the other things do. this is the only way a government can be run. that's just the way it is.

as to the gentlemen without jobs ''because they have muslim names...'' hmm, one might also attribute it to the fact that they have a tendency to drop things...like school. i'm annoyed that they played that up so much. i can't keep a job either. it's not because i'm a white, upper-middle class christian. it's because i can;t keep a job.

in conclusion: you can't always hide behind a religion that is crumbling in the face of modernity.

SpeedySpeedBoy · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 2

I saw the program just now and thought it was great and very intersting, I liked the French rap. Very Happy

this issue is very hard for the French government to solve. While people would think it's easy to simply allow the immigrants to France to intergrate into the French society just as the U.S. has done over its history. I think it is much more difficult for the French to do so since France has a much longer history and its own culture, unlike the U.S. which is basically built on immigration.

jasjitsingh · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 2

My response is not just for muslims also for the Sikh community (different religion than Islam) living in France, who are ignored in this PbS documentry. No doubt this french policy is against humanity and social welfare. Sikhs who fought for france in WW-II, about 85,000 soldgers from state of Punjab, India came to france for their support in WW-II and now this french goverenment is giving them this reward by banning their articles of faith. Sikhs who wear their 5 articles of faith all the time are now forced to remove to go to school. My question to French goverenment is that Where was their secularism when Sikhs soldger founght for them by wearing their articles of faith and won the war for France. I can only conclude that French are greedy, selfish --- when they were in need they got help from Sikhs now along with Muslims they are also banning them. 100% selfishness which will let french government be down side soon unless they respect the people who atleast fought for their country.[code][/code][code][/code]

bagelundercouch · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 15 Location: USA

^^^^^
wow, i really liked what that guy just said.

but...i think if one should be banned, they all should. the sikhs did a glorious job defending the french state in WWII, i am familiar with your struggle, thought not as well as i would wish to be Smile

!! but at the same time, the algerians also aided the french (thoguh perhaps grudgingly) and the french catholics and jews also helped, of course (to no avail...::ahem: Smile

. and they are all being asked to give up their religion when entering a place of learning so no one will be discriminated against. hard as that is to see, i think it's the major issue. you can't pass the problem off on the socio-economic situation or the political parties that plague the country. religious diversity is a problem. it is and always will be, in every country. france is trying to be faceless when it comes to religion and in this case, i think it is an excellent idea.

dan81 · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Clearwater, FL

It’s difficult to compare the situation in France to the situation in the US. Most immigrants who come to the US are Christians so values are less likely to clash. Christianity and Islam have been in fierce competition for hundreds of years and those feelings are not going to go away any day soon; add to that the historical struggle France had with Muslim nations and the unwillingness of Muslims to integrate into the French society. I doubt that being more accepting of Islam would solve the problem as long as French Muslims choose not to adapt. Take the US, we are accommodating Mexican immigrants but problems are not vanishing and an increasing number of immigrants choose not to adopt the American way of life. Allowing the public display of faith in schools would only add to the problem as minority groups would further distance themselves from the mainstream.

jazzcook · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Detroit, MI

Maybe I'm missing something here. No where in the program does it say that the Koran specifies the need to wear the head scarf. It says women should dress modestly. Fine! The women can wear a hair style that is modest. That would seem to be more in line with the exact word of the(religious) law. I tend to think of this as any sort of attire that would voluntarily segregate one from others. For instance, in American schools, they do not allow gang colors or motorcycle gang "colors" to be worn. And this seems to be a fair exchange for the education that one is pursuing. On the other hand, to play "devil's advocate" briefly, France is getting it's just desserts. It was a colonial power for so long and treated others around the world who are/were "of color" as something less than human. This is the "chickens coming home to roost" as Malik El Shabazz(Malcolm X) so eloquently spoke (actually referring to John F. Kennedy's death).

playdoughdays · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

This program showed a bunch of whining muslims feeling sorry for their selves. Which doesn't surprise me. I'm seperated from a Muslim and it is so typical for him and his family to blame and complain about everything and everyone. Every dollar they didn't make is someone else's fault. Every problem they have never is attributed to what they did,,someone else made it happen. Boo Hoo, boo hoo, I get sick of it. Stop being a "victim" and find out why you really can't find a job. Maybe your attitude sucks or your grades are bad.
As for the issue of the scarf, even though I don't like that religion, I will admit that I feel bad for the girls who really wear their scarves for religious reasons. Although we don't feel it is necessary, I know a few girls who would die of shame if anyone saw a piece of their hair. Other muslim girls I know would have a scarf burning party if their husbands gave them permission to stop wearing the scarf. Anyway, this is MY experience and my opinion.

mags2377 · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 10

For those who are interested, the verse in the Qu'ran that orders the women to cover is in "Al Nur" 31. It goes like this: " Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to show off thier adornments except that which is apparent and to draw their veils over necks and bosoms and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their sons, their brothers..." etc

I am a Muslim woman who wears not only a "headscarf", as you call it, but I also wear the face veil. I live in the US and I work at a College Campus and this presents no problem for anyone there. It is not a problem for the students nor my coworkers. The "headscarf" is symbol of a Muslim woman's faith. It is her badge of honor in this life and hopefully in the next. Muslim women wear because we are ordered by GOD to wear. It is our protection from everything that has led to the subjugation of women in Western society.

We (Muslim women) do not make a distinction between religion and life. RELIGION IS LIFE. We are muslims everyday, every minute, every second. So to ask the French Muslim girls, and they are French and Muslim, to remove their hijab or headscarf would be to ask them to stop being Muslim. To many of us being anything other than Muslim means to be as good or worse than dead.

annabellexoe · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5

In this controversial day and age with so many misconceptions and dangerous misinformation circulated with regard to Islamic faith and culture, I firmly believe that to have more programs spotlight sensitive international issues such as this would do all of humanity a world of good. Understanding one another is the first step toward a peaceful existence. Respect and agreement are two entirely different concepts.

Hijab is NOT merely a symbol of Islamic faith for women. It is, according to the teachings of the Qu’ran, a commandment of God and thus the RIGHT of a Muslim woman to cover. Further, if you read the Bible carefully, or even history, Christian women of Biblical times also covered their hair for the same reasons as Muslim women continue to do so today.

It is infuriating and inexcusable to imagine any government which is allowed to dictate what one is allowed to place upon their body or not, harming no one and yet holding hostage one’s freedom of identity, heritage, education, and conviction to God and faith in a nation boasting religious freedom and tolerance. This is as equally as insane as the concept of the Saudi Religious Police.

And please allow me to point out that to stereotype, profile, condemn, or judge nations of good people for the wicked actions of a few, only kills the spirit of all mankind... You've heard of cutting off the nose to spite the face?

There is also a big difference between Islam as a way of life verses cultural and geographical interpretations. When McVeigh bombed the federal building, it was not a Christian crime... and Charles Manson could quote Biblical scripture as eloquently as the Reverend Jerry Fallwell for whatever purpose suited him. Don't indulge your own ignorances by gobbling up the BS which churns revenue; EDUCATE YOURSELVES.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all affirm the existence of one God and further share many common beliefs and principals… One of the many beauties of Islam, unlike so many other arenas of life, is that Islam not only encourages, but teaches to seek out knowledge wherever ye shall find it.

The bottom line is, that we are all stuck on this planet together. We may as well learn a something while we are here… it may be quite the amazing discovery to find that we are none so different that we cannot practice respect, tolerance, and perhaps even appreciation.

Peace.

inked · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

First, I can understand and respect France's desire for a secular society. I really understand the fear of violent extremism that masquerades as Islam. I admire their aims w/ respect to public education. However, their execution is way off base.

Second, non-Muslims, non-Orthodox Jews and non-Sikhs have no REAL frame of reference for headcoverings. We (Christians) don't wear them, so we just don't get it. Just because it is not important to you, does not mean that hijab or turbans should not/cannot be of paramount importance to someone else!!!! FYI, it is utterly humiliating for someone who covers his/her head to appear bare-headed.

Personally, I believe our Christian fundamentalists have an undue influence on our domestic and international policy that defies logic and reason. However, our social and legal history leads us to react to religion in another way.

The French have also been concerned about the "de-Frenchification" of their culture in many areas (not just immigration - no English on public signs). Naturally, the age old European twin demons of violent anti-Semitism & anti-Muslim are showing up with greater frequency.

I noticed both sides of the issue are rightly concerned about integration (probably assimilation). However, this ban on hijab in school is having the opposite effect. The best way to ensure that someone feels a sense of belonging is to embrace that person as they are. There is nothing like discrimination to make someone seek out other ways (positive or negative) to belong to something. You can't possibly include somebody by stomping out a vital part of their identity.

Not only will a negative reaction emerge in France, it has already allowed moderates as well as extremists worldwide to say "See, I told you there is a war against our faith!" As a non-religious, but spiritual American of Episcopalian extraction, I myself am beginning to wonder. There's enough grist for the mill, short-sighted reactionary measures motivated by age-old religious and racial animus won't help.

Obviously there is a large section of society that is politically disenfranchised, economically excluded and has a difficult time merging economically and socially. Tackling unemployment and its resulting poverty are difficult tasks to work on. These problems didn't emerge overnight, nor are they going to go away any time soon. France certainly enjoyed colonialism and oppression in North Africa. You dance to the tune, you've got to pay the piper! It is certainly much easier to pick on a little Muslim girl (who by trying to get a secular education IS being French) than to look (1) inward at prejudice and (2) out towards the economy.

This law is meant to ban "ostentatious" displays of religion. Not only does it apply to public schools, but it has been enforced in government buildings. There are some Catholic orders that require nuns to shave their heads. Even as fed up as France is with the Catholic Church, I have a hard time believing that any public official would demand that a bald-headed nun remove her religious attire before entering government buildings.

Jasjit, I'm sorry that Sikhs are bearing the brunt of religious prejudice here and "over there" Wink

. (While I criticize the French, I take issue with our treatment of American Sikhs and Muslims). Besides, I wonder how "French" the French would be had the Sikhs stayed home and let the Kaiser have his way???

aelliot · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

Yes our country was and is built on immigratione/either voluntery or by force, but take a closer look. In boston it was Irish need not apply, in the west coast it was Chinese explotation on the railroads. Being denied enterance/ access in France because one's name is mohamed or in the U S because one's skin color isn't northen european is the root causes of all this anger. Why is it that after 3 generations in France one stilll feels allienated? Identities. cultures and socities are always in flux and ever changing. Its ignoprance and fear that the Anglo French havre to overcome just like the same fear and ignorance we had to overcome that led to groups like the KKK etc. etc. For curiosity sake. I wonder what the percentage of prision population of musilims are in France as compared to the Black prision population in the U S.

bagelundercouch · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 15 Location: USA

this may be a controversial question, mags, but hey, it's what we're here for:

do you think it would be fair to allow jewish men to wear yarmulkes every day of the week? you say yes to balance out the discrimination factor thingy, but...in reality i don't think many muslims would advocate that. it's part of their religion, and yet, in muslim countries, they aren't allowed to wear them. people aren't allowed to wear crucifixes either.

i hate to sound uber-patriotic, here, people, but the reason the US works is BECAUSE of the separation of religion and state. i respect everyone's beliefs...and they should respect the fact that in this day and age everything needs to be separated...it's like the monk guy on TV needs all of his food to be separated. that's just the way it works. it's not pretty, it's not HEALTHY, but it works. perhaps someday, it won't have to be this way. but to keep the peace, muslim women attending public schools should not be permitted to wear head coverings.

bagelundercouch · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 15 Location: USA

and if i may, mags (i keep reading your post over and over...interesting view) how ARE western women more subjugated than muslim women? you see, the way i was taught to think, a free woman is one who can work for herself without the support of a husband, one who can vote and speak out for herself without the fear of disgrace, or who can hold her gaze ERECT instead of being downcast and feminine constantly, or who should not have to dress herself in sheets of clothing, covering her face and her person entirely, just to avoid the attention of men who should be able to control themselves, or, of course and most importantly, one who is equal to a man and who can protect herself. obviously we share different views and i would really love to hear how muslim women are seen in muslim society. to the women of my generation, they are thought inferior and looked down upon becuase they cannot fight for themselves. is this what you think, too, or do you genuinely believe that being subordinate to a man is the way life is supposed to be?

please, if you get the chance, i would love to carry on this discussion with you!

amviles · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

I'm glad you quoted the Koran, I was wondering what it said about this issue. I think its great that you wear a veil and cover your hair without reservation. Women and men should be allowed to wear whatever they want. "Separation of church and state" means that the state cannot tell you how to practice your religion, therefore you can practice it however you want. Good for you and it was nice to see an intelligent, informed comment on the discussion!

unbekannt · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2992

Would a Western woman in a Muslim country (a minority) be allowed to appear WITHOUT the veil?

annabellexoe · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5

bagelundercouch you obviously did not read my post very closely, though I do applaud your polite efforts to learn. To answer you briefly, Women in Islam are actually given more rights than any other religion affords. Once more, do not confuse geographical quirks with the Islamic faith and do not assume that everything you read or hear is the truth – as in Christianity. Woman can and do study, earn degrees, and work without the support of a husband, though commonly it is preferred to marry, by CHOICE and yes, the woman’s choice. Woman can and do own property, vote, and are not required to wear bed sheets as you say, but to dress modestly covering all but the face and hands; most Muslimahs prefer to dress in Islamic clothing – heck they are so much easier! Lowering one’s gaze is a simple gesture of modesty NOT inferiority NOR subordination NOR of fear, out of respect for God, her faith and of her husband – a mutual respect I might add. (Would you not expect that your wife not ogle other men? And I would most certainly expect mine to not ogle other women.) And yes, men SHOULD control themselves, but why invite the temptation if you are clearly comfortable with who you are and what you want in life? Not that difficult to understand. Muslim women in the TRUE practice of Islamic faith are NOT at all oppressed, are held in very high esteem, are respected, protected, and yes, can and do fend for themselves. But again, there are exceptions to any and everything; one experience does not necessarily make a truth.

If you’re interested in some good over all basic information, try these links… (but do allow me to point out before you began Googling away, that there are as many bad sites as there are good… just like anything else out there with a passion for purpose, however straight or skewed)
http://al-islam.org/
http://www.bahagia.btinternet.co.uk/
http://www.islam101.com/

And if you are really curious with regards to western verses Islamic views of Muslims women and their roles, faith, etc… Perhaps some insight into the minds and souls of American converts would interest you. I highly recommend this book :
Daughters of Another Path: Experiences of American Women Choosing Islam by Dr. Carole Anyway http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964716909/002-6766642-7734401?v=glance

Or read stories of converts online :
http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/newMuslims/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/

Hope this helps shed a little light for you…

And yes, for the record, I too am a convert to Islam. I am not oppressed. I do work and support myself and my child without the assistance of any man. I am not weak, am a fighter, outspoken, educated, and a homeowner as well as a registered American voter …and I don’t wear bed sheets - except of course for the annual Muslim Sisters Toga Party. . Wink

Peace.

PS. inked… [*applause*]

unbekannt... it would depend upon the country, politics, etc. There are no universal government rules. Generally, western women traveling abroad to predominantly muslim countries are not required nor even asked to do so (cover), unless they enter a mosque... though many find it more comfortable or even "fun".

unbekannt · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2992

Ah, so Western women find the mandatory veil ''fun", eh? Just as Muslim women find female genital mutilation "fun?"

annabellexoe · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5

Genital mutilation is a sick and barbaric cultural/geographical ritual which has absolutely no authority from nor relation to Islam.

Educate yourself please and do not take my words out of context, if in fact you read any of them. I am simply trying to help explain answers to questions posed and point out misconceptions. I do of course realize that there are those who will chose to believe as they will regardless of opportunity to learn otherwise.

Goodnight.

unbekannt · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2992

Goodnight. However, you might want to inform other readers, if they're not already aware, of the wide-spread Islamic belief in -- and equally well-known and religiously-encouraged practice of -- this butchery on very young girls, amid their screams of terror and life-long disability.
The veil, in my opinion, is yet another vestige of a poor, uneducated, largely illiterate, religiously reactionary, society seeking to impose tyranny on women and girls specifically -- and Western culture in general - all because of the uneducated, misguided beliefs of some of their bullies relating to " virgins in paradise."

annabellexoe · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5

unbekannt

Again I say EDUCATE YOURSELF.

I believe my points have already been well made.

I just returned to leave yet another interesting link for anyone who might be interested : http://www.freep.com/news/religion/hijab6_20011106.htm

Peace

Very Happy

Ignacio Couce · Guest

Let’s keep history straight. I’m sure Sikhs did their part, but it was the Russians, British and Americans who won the war for France.

PaceDentro · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

[quote="santalone"]What do you think of France's decision to ban headscarves in schools? Will the ban further alienate the large Muslim population or integrate them further into French society? What were your reactions to this week's WIDE ANGLE?[/quote]

I just posted the original question start a response to it.

I think that the decision France has made to ban headscarves in schools is undemocratic--it takes away choice. In one aspect it will further alienate Muslims from French society because there will be those sisters, or Muslim women, who will not go to school and possibly search alternative means of education, or will they be educated? Embarassed

France wants to create more poverty instead of finding a means of dealing with it and lowering the current level? On the other hand, there will be those (non-Muslims) within French society who will side with the Muslim women in allowing them to have the CHOICE! Very Happy

I think that this week's Wide Angle was broadcast at the right moment because it has shown some people who didn't know this was going on what is about to happen, and, for those who are against our freedoms being taken away from us, they will be disgusted by it and want to follow to see what happens. Definitely history in the making. Exclamation

I am an American, a descendant of those who fought in the Civil War (North & South) and American Revolution (American). I am also a Muslim. Six years ago I choose to make shahada--the same statement Reda made. However, unlike Reda, I am also a woman, and I choose to wear hijab--dress modestly and wear the headscarf. That, in fact, was a pivotal point in my decision to declare my faith. From readings and the women I met, and from my own experience, I have found the headscarf to be very fulfilling spiritually, physically, and mentally. I see it as something that tells people I want them to see me as who I am, not what I am and which style I'm trying to fit. I don't see why a women who is confident in who she is finds it necessary to show everyone her body. I also find it to be very sexist that women are expected to reveal more of themselves, just look at women's beach volleyball at the Olympics, rap lyrics, and stereotypes propagated by children's shows and movies.

Unfortunately, some people think that wearing a piece of fabric over one's head renders that person incompetent. So what of those who always wear baseball caps? A "veil" is a misnomer because it leads many to associate the term with hiding--as in a Christian marriage when the bride wears a veil to hide her face from her husband to be. (But why? He's already often seen so much more!) A woman in a headscarf is not hiding!

A woman who wears the headscarf is breaking sexist stereotypes created against women, showing that a woman doesn't have to show her body to everyone to be self-confident and lead a productive life. All choices I have made as a Muslim woman have been my own, not my husband's. I also became Muslim before I met and married my husband. Wink

Ash Khan · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Calgary, canada

I have been following the hijab debate for a long time. In my opinion wearing of headscarfs is a cheap way to show one's religious affiliation. Similarly, the Muslim men who sport long beards and dress in different clothes are also making cheap statements that they are more pious than other Muslims. It would be far better for these religious people to show their faith by doing volunteer work, giving 10-20 % of their incomes for helping the poor people and building bridges of understanding. World is already divided along racial and economical lines and now these religious zealots want to create yet another divide.
I am a Muslim and occasionally go to mosques to see what is being preached. I have yet to see the Imams teach tolerance, forgiveness, doing community work and build world peace. At no time have I ever heard such discussions as protecting the environment, human rights etc. Until the greater Muslim diasporas start discussing the above issues, I am afraid the Muslims will be relegated to third class citizens wherever they live. Let us not waste a moment on head gear or beards and concentrate on universal education, clean water, population control, human rights, poverty alleviation. In the 21st century where people are immigrating to all parts of the world, we should find common grounds for living in peace and leave the religion in our homes.
_________________
We have no choice but to get involved in asking our leaders to make this world a safe and environmentally sustainable place.
concurrently we as world citizens must also do our part in reducing consumption and practicing peace and forgiveness.